English-language case could go to Supreme Court in AZ
An Arizona lower-court ruling has declared Alejandrina Cabrera ineligible for a city council ballot due to her inability to speak proficient English, but her lawyers are considering an appeal to the state Supreme Court. The New York Times reports,
Judge John Nelson of the Yuma County Superior Court ruled late Wednesday night that Ms. Cabrera be struck from the ballot because she did not know enough English to do the job. In removing Ms. Cabrera, Judge Nelson agreed with the recommendation of a linguist who had conducted tests of Ms. Cabrera and found her English skills lacking.
Those tests, conducted by a university professor, found Cabrera lacking even “basic survival level” English.
“Obviously, we’re disappointed, although the judge acknowledged that there’s no precedent for him to follow,” John S. Garcia, one of the lawyers for Ms. Cabrera, said Thursday.
Mr. Garcia said he planned to meet Thursday night with Ms. Cabrera to determine her willingness to continue the legal battle.
According to RT.com, 88% of Cabrera’s would-have-been constituency speaks fluent Spanish, and the current mayor, who has helped instigate the action against Cabrera, himself speaks imperfect English.
Continue Reading on www.nytimes.com
Ok. My only problem with most Republicans is on this issue. How come we allow Canadians come in here without a problem but don't allow the Mexicans come in here? I don't think the wall is the solution nor any other immigration bill. I think it has something to do with the language barrier. My main problem with people who say that Mexicans shoudn't be here is that they usually say they need to speak English. But, most Mexicans do speak both languages. I think Americans are in the wrong on this one. We need to swallow our pride. They speak two languages; it won't hurt us to do the same. In fact, it would make things better. We can make our personal world larger, and we can introduce the world our American values better.
Ducky! Have you been to Mexico lately? Most Mexicans don’t speak two languages any more than Americans do. Biligualism may be more prevalent in the USA for the simple reason that Americans are generally better educated with varying levels of foreign language training. Mexico is certainly not like the Philippines where the people are required to take both English and Tagalog in school (and they learn their respective dialects at home for a third), both languages are “official” languages, and people speak and understand both with varying degrees of proficiency, the better educated speak both with better proficiency than the under educated. America is not like the Philippines in this respect either. Please stop putting down America! This country is not as bad as you obviously think.
I obviously don't think America is bad. As I have said this one issue is where I digress from the rest of Conservative America. No, I have not been to Mexico. I'm from California. Most immigrants that do show up to the U.S. do speak both languages or they'll learn it. As for language training for Americans, it's fewer than it ought to be. Mainly, the people that can afford it and people the are fortunate to go to such schools. Just because somebody has a differing point of view on America, doesn't mean the person is anti-American.
My main point is if we want to keep our American values and make the world change or prevent it from going down the toilet, we need to step up and change our attitude. The other point is that the whole immigration issue is derived from the argument "Speak English!"
Besides is it Consitutional to force people to do something that is not in their best interests? If Mexican immigrants don't want to learn, shouldn't that be their power to do so? Just as it is ours to not learn their language.
Ducky, your looking at this all backwards. If you moved to a country that didn't speak english would you expect them to learn it? Or would you learn their's? Obviously you are somewhat educated. I think you would try to learn their's. No different with Mexicans. If they come here the burden is on them to blend into our culture not our's to blend into their's.
I would learn theirs. I can still not want to learn it and live in my little social cirlce, but that wouldn't benefit anybody. Yes, it is their burden to blend in with the culture; however, the Mexican or Mexican-American culture is huge. Our country is no longer what it was 50 years ago. It's different now. The Mexicans have an impact that even the politicians and marketeers recognize. Pretty much they don't need to learn our language anymore. They have large communities, work places, and they even have large numbers in a lot of Western U.S. towns that even out populate non-Spanish speaking citizens. Our best defense at countering any socialist movement that is brought by the Mexican culture is to learn their language.
Just because we live here doesn't mean that our culture cannot be taken away. Just as it is their burden to assimilate into our country, it is ours to assimilate to the future or we'll be left behind. And, if we don't assimilate to the future, then, they won't need to assimilate to the American culture at all because the American culture and values would have been lost.
I have responded to you; however, I accidentally used the word s.0.c.1.@.l.i.s.t so it won't be posted until Joel or whoever posts it. Why they pick on just that word, I have no idea.
I am assuming that you are talking about legal immigrants and not illegals. And does your argument include all immigrants as well? What about Farzi, or Russian? Are we to learn all foreign languages to accommodate immigrants?
Your argument has a valid point, it is not a wall but the language. Canada has two languages because it was divided by the English and French originally. America was never divided. The one common thing that unites people is a common language. While most Mexicans may speak both languages in some areas of the country, there are many that are here that do not speak or desire to learn English.
Knowledge of another language does have its benefits. When my father was stationed in Germany, I learned German, both because it made it easier to deal with the Germans but also because there were many Germans who refused to speak English.
Farzi and Russian don't have much influence in the immigration issue as Spanish does; it's really because these bills are all about the Mexicans. Hence, the Arizona legislation bills. As you said most Mexicans do speak both languages. As for the ones that don't, that is up to them. They have the power to do just that. Either because they are are too lazy to learn or the fact that they don't need to. The Mexican or Mexican-American culture is vast. In some Western U.S. towns they are the majority and not by 51%. They are here; they are here to stay. There are too many people to deal with to pass laws like immigration bills. It's just reality, and non-Spanish speaking Americans need to see that. It's not a bad thing that we'll have to learn another language. If we don't then the immigrants that do show up, will just ignore us and won't consider our American values and way of life. We'll be left behind.
They already do. The Mexicans already feel entitled to all they can get. Just because they :they are too lazy to learn or the fact that they don't need to" is a flimsy excuse. If they wish to work in America then they need to know the language. Just ask SWEPCO, they sent a spanish speaking crew to trim the right of way without an English interpeter. Results: Because they could not speak or understand English, they drove their utility truck across my septic line and gave permission for a total stranger to enter my land to get the logs they had cut.
They may be here to stay, but we need to stop facilitating their reluctance to learn our language. Unless they are conversant in English dont hire them. Stop printing documents in Spanish.
And least you forget, they have no desire to consider our American value and way of life. They have intimidated school over Cinco De Mayo celebrations, a Mexican holiday. They have advocated taking back the lands purchased or won from Mexico.
Sorry about your lawn, and I don't know SWEPCO. Entitlements go beyond just immigrants. The entitlement part is simply because the Dems did a better job at sweeping certain demographics up than the Reps.
Your argument is typical of people that do not want to change. As stated before, there are, too, many of them to ignore them. They were hired because they wanted to work which by the way is a lot more than a lot people are willing to do. I used to work at a cable company installing cable at people's houses. In all that time, I had to install cable at numerous of houses that had people living off of welfare. Not one was an immigrant. They were white. Sure, this example can be considered an ad hominem, but the fact is the immigrants want to work. Yes, they live different lives and cultures, but they have something in common with us. They are living the values that we live. They work so they can put food on the table for the one thing that matters.
As for the language, yes, not all of them speak both languages. Yes, it would be nice to communicate with them at times. But, that's the thing. Are we to pass laws that say they should learn something or to conform the way we want them to live. Which by the way, isn't that the same thing as liberals wanting to pose their values on us? Or, would it be more wiser, even more American, to stay out of legislating laws and encourage the immigrants to conform, ourselves? For people that argue for immigrants to learn another language when they come here even if they don't want to be a citizen, is advocating for larger government. For people who change the world, themselves, outside of government, is advocating for smaller government.
You make your argument to keep our American way of life and values and culture. May I remind you every time government gets involved we lose our values. Our country is changing. It's not what it was 50 years ago. It's different now. We either must assimilate to the future or we'll lose our culture all together. Would it really hurt for us to learn another language? Learning another language, specifically Spanish, would defend our culture and values. It would bring down the language barrier and we'll be able to communicate to them better about American values. You do agree that American values are better than any other s.0c!al!st country's values? Just because we live in the U.S. doesn't mean we can't have our culture taken away.
Could it also have to do with the fact that unlike most Canadians who come here, the majority of Mexicans are illiterate!
Yeah, that's what I was referring to – the language barrier. And, most Mexicans are not illiterate; they can read and write Spanish just fine. Literature doesn't just refer to English. Illiteracy doesn't just refer to non-English people not being able to read or write English; it applies to people to English speaking people as well.
We are a nation of English speaking people. Other languages are welcome but as 2nd languages. English first and foremost. If you want to speak Spanish move to Mexico or farther south.
Well Ducky, it's like this. When in Rome do as the Romans do. When in America, learn OUR language. Why should American citizens have to learn Spanish to appease another Nation? If people want to immigrate to America, then they need to learn OUR language and live by our laws, otherwise they need to pack it up and go home.
Your argument is false logic. We allow both Canadiens and Mexicans to enter the USA for legitimate reasons. Neither is allowed to enter for illicit purposes. I have no idea where you got the notion that "most" Mexicans speak English. That is a total fabrication of fact. Most of the illegal Mexican intruders speak a pidgin form of Emglish not suitable for use in formal/legal settings as in government. Every minority demands special treatment and favorable outcomes when they are lacking necessary skills. Mrs. Cabrera could avail herself of the many courses available in Arizona for non-natives to learn English as a second language.
We are in the U.S. The language spoken here is English. If you go to Germany, France or even Mexico, you need to learn the language and follow their laws in order to succeed. Immigrants who come to the U.S. without wanting to assimilate, which is all illegal aliens, are not here because they love what America stands for and want to be a contributing part of U.S. society. They come here to take advantage. Legal immigrants, on the other hand, show respect first by following U.S. federal law, and then by assimilating into our society while preserving their culture.
To even consider that it is some how OK for somebody who can't speak English should be allowed to run for political office is just off the deep end. We have a pathway to immigration which is less strict than the vast majority of all countries, including Mexico. Respect our laws.
What part of Canadiens tend to come here legally and abide by the law, whereas too many Mexicans are breaking the law, don’t you get? The premise you bring up is not valid. It isn’t simply a case of we allow Canadiens and not Mexicans. Libs are so wilfully uninformed.
Dear ignorant Ducky ;
Firstly, you are comparing apples and grapefruits.. Yes, Canada has two nationally sanctioned languages, BUT NOT ALL CANADIANS ARE NOT BILINGUAL ! Very few Canadians are bilingual ….
Secondly, have you ever travelled to Canada ? Have you ever been to the United States of Mexico ? In your case you are extremely ignorant, and know nothing about the subject of which you speak …
When I went to school if an alien wanted to beome a US citizen they had to read, write, and speak english fluently. If this person does not speak english fluently how did she become a citizen?
Do you know for a fact that she IS a citizen?
She's probably an illegal.
When the Cubans arrived in America in the 70's, the government decided to print all documents in both english and spanish. This allowed them to maintain their language and forced American citizens to learn spanish. The standards have been lowered to a working knowledge of english. Unlike Canada, which speaks english in one region and french in another, America has no official language. We have allowed immigrants to learn at their own pace. Earlier on, most immigrants considered it a matter of pride to learn english.
To all those that freak out when States want their elected officials to speak "enough English to do the job" had better check into their State Constitution and Statutes. My State's official language is English. Therefore, every government document and business is supposed to be carried in English.
Here's something I found out about Arizona: http://www.azda.gov/main/English103.htm
Twenty-eight States have English as the official language. Five Territories have English as the official language.
Therefore, quit complaining and assimilate.
Try checking that same subject in the California constitution.
One point that has been neglected in all of the above letters is, how does the non-or low-level speaking foreigner function in today's economy if the English language skills are sub-standard? How does that person or those people buy a used car? Understand the warranty on a new refrigerator? Understand the value or law of the country? I used to work for a department store and I would have to wait extended lengths of time for an Indian to translate information about an appliance to his non-English speaking wife. For a short time I worked in customer service for Ford and constantly had people on the phone who had purchased cars and were paying through the nose for a piece of junk because they knew nothing about the contracts they had signed.
Do you all honestly think that not being able to speak, write or read English is going to protect you from thieves, hucksters and
all those who see a sucker and determine to take advantage of him/her? Just as an example, I had an 81 year old woman who would, when all was said and done, pay over 50,000 for a 13 year old car because she had no idea what she was buying.
Now let me ask you? Do any of you know the rules and regulations for living in Mexico if you cannot read or write Spanish? I'm sure you can find the list on the internet and I can also assure you that if you don't master the language, you can't stay. They are not going to waste perfectly good money teaching you their language. And they are not going to make welfare payments to you because you can't speak the language well enough to stay in their country. They are going to boot your backside back across the border. Also, they will not waste money paying for your medical expenses, WIC payments et al. They don't need you and they will let you know in jig time.
While I think its important to speak fluent english to work on government business in an English speaking country, It occurred to me there is no test that shows she has an understanding of our government processes, the Constitution, our laws etc. If she is going to stand up and take an oath to uphold the Constitution then shouldn't she know what it says and means? And I bring this up because, most our American nationals in such offices, couldn't pass such a test either!
You know Harlan, I doubt that the majority of our 'elected' leaders have even read the Constitution. They sure don't act like it.
Ducky I'm sorry you don't seem to get it. It is alright if someone comes LEGALLY to this country but when they come here after being raised in another country they have that other countrys values and training imbedded ito their brains and no matter how long they are here they cannot understand all the ways – habits and reasoning of those born schooled and raised here by American parents. Drive through any Mexican – Oriental neighborhood and you can see their culture is completely different and so are their values and the way they look upon others as well as their own. With this woman not having a full understanding of the language she wouldn't be able to fully understand the job she was elected to do and would only complicate matters. Nothing to do with her being Mexican German or any other race to leave her there would be like placing a child in her place.
Legal immigrants have also found it to be a matter of economic necessity to speak English. The more fluent in English they become, the more successful they become.
BTW. That is not my personal opinion. I know several legal immigrants and all of them have stated words to that affect.
You are correct. Many immigrants chose to learn English. They took pride in that accomplishment. I went to college with an immigrant from Pakistan and although she spoke English, she wanted to speak it better. I helped her with English and she taught me Pakistani.
Bringing another country's values may not be a bad thing. It is bringing in another perspective into our worldview. Yes, there are cultures that may not be adherent to our laws. For those people that come into this country and do not adhere to our laws, we do not need to put up more laws for these folks. The laws that shape our culture and values are already on the books. Those laws are the ones that need to be enforced. Anything outside of these laws can turn on us and be tyrannical.
Not understanding the first part of your argument, however. What if they come here LEGALLY after being raised in another country and they still hold onto their other country values still stuck in their brains?
As for the offensive neighborhoods that we drive through, different cultures in our country is a good thing. As mentioned before, it enlarges our worldview and our knowledge of the rest of the world grows deeper. If we didn't have these cultures, our country would grow stagnant. If you don't appreciate these other cultures, then I suggest you stay out of those neighborhoods. One of the reasons why they collect over there is because the more established people will not accept them into their culture. Yes, they will bring new things, but we will be better for it. They will, also, be better for it because just as they teach us their values, we get to teach them ours.
Ducky, if the Mexicans, illegal or otherwise, don’t want to consider our American values and way of life, they can darn well go back where they came from – no ifs, ands or buts!
When I moved to Italy, the Italians didn’t learn English, just so they could talk to me! And, I certainly didn’t expect them to, as you so evidently want the Americans to cow-tow to the damn Mexicans! I’m sick and tired of all this bull! I had to learn Italian, so I could live in Italy.
Well, if the Mexicans weren’t so lazy, they would be more than willing to learn English, since that is OUR national language. Why do you want to single out the so-called poor Mexicans and want us to feel sorry for them? If they were too lazy to work in their own country and make it as great as the United States, I say screw all of them. If Mexico was as great as the U.S., they wouldn’t ever consider moving here in the first place. Most of the ones who do, don’t come with a green card. I personally know a Home Depot employee who has been in the U.S. since he was eleven years old (he rolled across the border in a tractor-trailer tire) and he’s now 27 and the only green card Home Depot required of him was the one with George Washington’s picture on it. Heck, he wasn’t even legal until two years ago!
So, no, I’m not going to pity the Mexicans or any other nationality that comes into this great country of ours. This is the greatest country in the world and if the Mexicans expect me to bow down to them and learn their language, just so we can communicate, then they can all go to you know where!
I’m sick and tired of this pity party that you and others try to push off on the rest of us American’s. If you want to cater to the Mexicans, then why don’t you pack your bags and move to Mexico with the rest of them?
English in Italy is not a force. Nobody wants to move to Italy other than Muslims. However, Mexicans and their language are a force in the U.S. If it were the case as it is in Italy that only a few Mexican immigrants wanted to come here, then maybe you would have a point. There are around 35 million Mexicans in the U.S. That's a huge chunk of the population. This is not including the country that is next door to the south of us. It's not even realistic to legislate such laws against such a huge population. It's not that I want to cow-tow to people. I'm just looking at it from a realistic point of view. You say I'm pitying them; I saw you're ignoring what really is at stake.
Again, they're not assimilating to our values because they don't need to. No amount of laws will have them assimilate to the way you want them to be. Just like the prohibition, the law will just simply make people into criminals. I'm not saying to pity them, anyways. I'm saying if we want to preserve our culture and values we need to see the changes that are coming down for the future. America is the greatest country that ever was, but just because we are declared as the best nation ever, doesn't mean that we can't be downgraded. Oh, wait we were downgraded.
Somehow I think the resentment of Mexicans and other people that come into our country is more out of jealousy. We want to be the best and nobody should stand in our way. Yes, they can act arrogant. That's only because they know that they can get away with it because we don't speak their language. Imagine if we did. They wouldn't be so arrogant and they would have to assimilate to our culture. I knew this girl once. She was a white girl in a very heavily Mexican populated school. There were these two Spanish speaking boys sitting behind her talking bad about her. However, to their surprise she told them off in Spanish. That put an end to that, and they behaved. Again instead of getting jealous and putting up laws, we can change things ourselves and do it without forceful actions. We can do it by changing ourselves first. But, that's if we don't want to be lazy.
Hispanics, not just Mexicans, are 16% of the U.S. population. This means that your statement of 35 million Mexicans being here is either out of ignorance, or you're knowingly including illegals into your number.
You want to be the best? How do you justify the outrageous increase in crime in the border states from illegals. Illegals have nothing to do with wanting to be the best. Illegals have nothing to do with loving America. They are here to take advantage, nothing more. If they truly wanted to be here for a love of the U.S. they would respect our laws.
To bad an official doesn't represent only those who voted for him/her. There is a system to produce that but I've described it before and this isn't the place to describe it again. If such a system were iion then let the non english speaker be on the ballot, be judged by the voters pro and con, win, and represent as affectively as he can. If he is not effective then it was the voter's choice. No voter would be represented by someone they didn't want, unlike now.
I would think that to hold ANY Government position you would have to be a legal citizen, and if the woman can not speak English, my first question would be is she even a citizen? Does she at least have a Green Card? Seriously, we need to make set a few ground rules before sticking people into ANY Government office. Granted this is a local position, but just making English the official National language would solve a lot of problems.
There's a lot of posts on here that are very Pro-America. I love America. We are the most influential, strongest country in the world, and even with our current situation we are to be a great nation. However, some comments have a disagreement with the my view of immigration. There's a reason why I think the way I do. Here's the basis of my thinking. Being this is a Christian site, I would think people here can follow this.
Some say that this is OUR language, OUR country, OUR laws. Yes, it is ours to uphold. However, I do not want to have the attitude of saying this is our anything, and everybody else has to adhere to what I like. That attitude is similar to the traits of a liberal. They expect you to do what they see as right.
If you look at history, things change. Countries come and go. People rise to power and get stabbed in the back – literally. Somebody here said when in Rome do as the Romans do. The problem with that is the Romans did what they did, and they fell for it. I noticed that the theme America is the Greatest Nation on God's Green Planet has become a religious mantra for Conservative America. The statement is irony. America is only great because God chose it to be the way it is. Yes, we've worked hard and our Founders fought and died for our beginnings, but in the end it was allowed by God for these things to happen. The statement that America is Great is, usually, proclaimed with naivety, bluster, and sometimes, dare I say it with the for sure retaliation, down right arrogance. America is great, but we shouldn't contribute it to ourselves. Our Creator should take the credit. Have we forgotten who judges and who really is in power? Have we forgotten that a good chunk of Japan is in dismay? Have we forgotten that a good portion of China is becoming Christian and America is decreasing in Christianity?
You see my attitude is not politically liberal. I do not believe in writing up new laws to force people to do certain things. I believe that God does what He wills, and changes and controls His creation as He pleases. As Christians we should recognize that. So, if God is changing his Creation including the demographic population (illegal or otherwise), then is it really OURS to claim? Yes, we are to uphold the God ordained laws that we have. For one, there were no laws to say how people should behave and what to learn when our nation began. It is God's law that was handed down from Creation that we should ultimately adhere to. It is God's law that over rides man's laws. If we don't adhere to God's law, then God could very well take away our laws that we hold so dearly. God can very well take our laws away just as He ordained them to be.
When Jesus said love thy neighbor as you do yourself, do we not understand the implications of this? (Which by the way, why boo it?) I'm afraid our attitude has been of we are better than most. We are not better than most. We are either equally saved or equally unsaved. Remember American Conservatism is related to, if not derived from, Biblical viewpoints. Or, did we forget where we were making our arguments from?
Our attitude is no more different than the first story of the Bible. Adam and Eve thought they could be like God or better. They thought that they could be number one. They were booted out of the greatest place ever was. (Truly, was the greatest place ever that was on Gods Green Planet.) They didn't adhere to God's words. They had there culture and way of life taken away from them. So, again is it ours or is it God's creation? Look I'm not the greatest person to make an argument, but this is something that I believe Conservative America even Christian America has forgotten.
It has been said that a house divided cannot stand. Bibically, the house built on sand could not stand. Only houses built on rock can survive. That rock is unity. Unity in an ideal was what created this country against an oppressive ruler. Unity in cause is what caused farmers and shop keepers to take us arms for the freedoms we enjoy today. Many other nations have come to America, they have learned our language, became part of our society while enhancing it with their cultures.
Why then should one particular group, Mexicans, be excluded from this tapestry of our country. By accepting their refusal to learn our language we empower them to divide us linguistically. Rather than enhance our society with their culture, they expect to celebrate their customs while denying Ameicans to celebrate theirs as in the case of school boys being expelled because they wore shirts with the Ameican flag on them, while Mexican students were allowed to wave Mexican flags, and wear CincodeMilo colors. Cinco de Milo is a Mexican celebrations of their freedom. The French do not impose Bastille Day on us, nor does any other culture.
We have allowed the hypenated American, African/Ameican and Spanis/American, to become part of our language out of political corectness. Yet, French, German, Italian, and others do not. They consider themselves Americans first, with roots from other countries.
This is America is it too much to ask that people speak the language. Why do we always want to accomendate everyone else, be it Mexicans or Muslims. We couldn't go to Mexico and try this crap.
Forgot to ask is she legal.
I live in America where English is spoken, why do I have to learn Spanish just because illegals come here by the thousands? I have heard about a class action to sue businesses who hire on basis of bilingual or not as it is discrimination…..Pretty good chance of far reaching reprocussions……heh heh heh!!!!
Governmnet and business have caved into the bilingual rhetoric.
This sounds like a case of trying to force the majority to abide by the minority. If she can’t speak or understand English, how will she do her duties. Will the council and tax payers be forced to pay for a translater for her? WHY?
I would like to see the reverse of this done down in Mexico. Can you just imagine a non Spanish speaking person demanding to be on the city council of Monterey or Mexico City? I could just hear the Mexican council members laughing you right out of the building.
Shameful that this can even be pushed as far as it has to date.
If you don't speak the lingo – too bad – you are disadvantaged by your OWN unwillingness to learn it. An automatic disqualification should occur but then the society that has permitted this sort of rubbish to flourish as 'multi-culturalism' is to blame for this getting this far in the first place.
Fix both: English only – TFB if you don't understand ENGLISH. Go to night school and learn it and THEN run for public office or not.
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